VoxeLibre looking for volunteers! #3849
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Reference: VoxeLibre/VoxeLibre#3849
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Hi all,
VoxeLibre is a big project. Ignoring new functionalities, I see there being at least 2 years worth of work there between bugs, tech debt, and fleshing out older content. It is survived and thrived by the commitment and dedication of maintainers/devs, past and present. This game is a culmination of many people's contributions and many hands make lighter work.
The responsibilities of being a maintainer aren't always visible but are all consuming. It requires dedication and to some extent self-sacrifice. After throwing myself fully into release 0.83, I still feel a little burnt out I don't think I fully recovered from that.
Going forward, VL either carries on hoping it gets self-sacrifice, and ebbs and flows with the time commitments, or we need to do things differently. This game should not be reliant on a single point of failure (lead maintainer). It would be irresponsible of me if I didn't try to do things differently. As a result, I would like to see if we can start to share the work around.
The first step is for me to document down what needs to be done and what we need help with.
Work that needs to be done
Making decisions where there is disagreement - Lead Maintainer
Making decisions where there is uncertainty - Lead Maintainer
Setting out a vision/direction - Maintainer
Maintain and administer social media (Discord, Reddit, Lemmy, Matrix) - Maintainer
Prioritising issues - AncientMariner
Releases - Timelines, decisions on scope, and execuition of this. - AncientMariner
Profiling and identifying performance issues - AncientMariner
Code reviews of functionality PRs - Core dev team?
Code review of translations
French - 3raven (and maybe AFCMS)
Russian - rudzik8
Code reviews of new contributors - Contributor onboarding (individual or team. Some overlap with core dev)
Asset validation - Check for correct credits, open source licence and that assets are not derivative (copies, or recolours).
Modder support - (answering questions, decisions on how we can improve this)
Player support (Questions and bug support)
Marketing - To inform people that MineClone2 exists. It is progressing and it is worth playing.
Testing
This is not an exhaustive list and if you think there is something that can help that we don't list, please let us know. If you would like to volunteer for any of these areas or have questions, please feel free to respond or message AncientMariner.
Regards,
AncientMariner
for that subrole we should assign either a hell of a polyglot, or create many different subsubroles for different languages. I could take Russian 😛
Good point. A translation team would be a great idea. Thanks for volunteering for the Russian translations.
The core dev team should be doing reviews, especially if it falls into their area of expertise. But, yeah - I get it, no one wants to review things. And, really, that's been a hard thing to get done. Maybe making a check list of things to check for when the dev team does code reviews, aside from "does this code cause crashes?" It could make the task easier, and help them to get through it, having a battle plan.
Also having people fluent in languages tackle their own language when it comes to translations, would seriously help out a ton.
Marketing and Player support / mod support should have someone in charge of it, since the project is growing. And, possibly someone to help them.
Thinking about this, tossing out roles with expectations would make for a more cohesive team. And, it's something that most open source projects struggle with, as it's felt like "Well, I am just happy that someone is contributing, I really cannot ask them to do more." Well, you never know if you don't ask. And, a lot of people love this project.
I can be in charge of french translation.
Sweet. Thanks for volunteering. How is the best way to contact you if we need translations or a review? Do you use Discord or Matrix?
@3ravn:matrix.org
Can I help with Brazilian Portuguese translation?
Take a look at the translation files and see what can be done, what is missing, etc.
I think anarquimico started, and did a great job, but didn't finish the job as it's quite a big task, so if there are bits missing that annoy you, feel free to translate some. Sometimes small chunks are easier to review and merge in. Big translation projects are difficult and sometimes get abandoned.
Better to get 30% merged, then 30%, then 10% merged rather than 70% abandoned.
I could help with German translations.
I would contribute more often, sadly the environment created here has become toxic and i am considering joining mineclonia instead, like many before me.
See here for one of the reasons why:
MineClone2/MineClone2#4147 (comment)
I am not the only one who thinks this @corarona and @eridin also have migrated to mineclonia for the same reasons.
If you look at some of the closed PR's, you will see, maintainers of this project bullying its contributors.
I will probably get canceled for saying this. but i think its worth saying because, things have to change.
Resolution as i see it, is:
In conclusion, we put a lot of work into this project, and I would hate to see that wasted.
In my case i am doing it alongside my work and university, which means i have to sacrifice my own rest time for this project(over the weekend), its not very encouraging at all.
Oh boy, if you think the atmosphere is toxic now, you shoulda seen it under the previous maintainer (Cora), and no, I'm not implying they were fully responsible. People in open source get very defensive about stuff and can get very rude. When you are making a game, and it's a project of passions, you can double and triple that as folk get emotional. We have pushed long for an open and inclusive feedback, and have come a long way.
Basically, when you contribute to open source, your contributions are in commits, and if people take contributions without full credit, people can be upset. Cora has previously got personally very angry when code of hers has been used in the past without full attribution or using the original commits. There was even a heated exchange after I squashed commits Cora wrote while still giving full credit, and usually she would not be happy with her commits being altered or taken without cherry pick. You were actually doing just that, and I think Herowl was trying to help you. All they did was ask a question, and you perceive that as toxicity. We've had heated days long conversations in the past about it and not giving correct credit. I think it is safe to say that there has been some history between the projects, and we don't get on. Inevitably they'll say toxicity is here, and multiple folk here will feel the toxicity was from individuals involved in that project. Ultimately, you're relying on sources that aren't necessarily impartial, and you don't know the history. I don't see an @eridin on Mineclonia. Are you are referring to erlehman (sp?) who was the original maintainer on Mineclonia and very close friends with Cora?
If you perceive getting feedback or questions on your work as bullying, then that is your choice. You're free to move over to Mineclonia, but sooner or later, you'll realise that getting feedback and improving PRs is part of both open source and professional development. It's worth being open to feedback rather than getting frustrated, or defensive. We'd like you to stick around, but if you wish to move over, I wish you luck.
If you would like to give any other examples of toxicity, I am happy to listen, but I don't think the message you linked was toxic or intended to be. You have to remember that these projects are international, and English isn't always a primary language. You will often see a tone that may feel rude, but was not intended in that matter and is just a little bit more direct and straight to the point than you're used to. People don't communicate exactly like they do in England or America and if you're interested in open source, you'll see that more and more. Also, please remember than maintainers do this in their free time when they could be watching TV or playing games. They get PRs of varying standards, some ready to merge, some that need work. Giving feedback or a negative response isn't fun, and I'll be honest that, and many quite strong and emotional responses grinded me down to the point this was no longer fun and I couldn't do it anymore. Either PRs would have sat unreviewed or someone else steps in. I passed technical maintainership over to Herowl. The work they put in this is incredible and it's the reason this project is still going and getting updates now. They were the only person willing to step up to the plate. Please also see the human behind the keyboard and it's not always fun to give negative feedback or ask for improvements.
What toxic environment?
If you make a commit clearly mentioning the fork in the code, and many people before you copied code from a fork (or from upstream, for that matter) and committed it as their own, my question was very legitimate.
I was once called out for something like that (I copied code from MT builtin actually) when already being a maintainer here, by someone ranked lower, and I didn't attack the person calling me out but added a comment explaining the source of the snippet (obviously cherry-pick was out of question, MTE builtin has no fork relationship with us either way).
Also, FYI @Impulse, cora left this project after being a maintainer... which can be seen in the credits. @Michieal who was the culprit there? It was a situation concerning you AFAIK, and it was before my time here.
It was a confrontation way to ask it. I work very hard to contribute here, you could have just said what you need me to do like @ancientmarinerdev did. that would have been a better way to go about it, rather than accuse me.
If you can't be constructive, then maybe you don't deserve my contributions. which i spend a lot of time on btw, additionally i checked and the code in question i copied is actually a fork of the code that already existed in mineclone2, with 1 or 2 lines added. that's not even copyrightable under US/UK law. I explained this in the original PR.
Oh, and if you feel questions and feedback to ensure correct credit for work is there is toxic, but going to a rival project where there is a history of bad blood with the current project, and trying to pull up issues from anybody and round up a mob without talking raising your concerns in a calm manner when things bother you is not toxic, I don't think I'm going to be able to persuade you otherwise. Be the change you want to see.
https://codeberg.org/mineclonia/mineclonia/issues/984
I'm English. It's the only language I know. American and British cultures are very similar and communicate in a more indirect manner. Many from Europe are communicating in their second language and are more direct. Expecting them to communicate in exactly the same manner isn't exactly cool or fair. If you're interested in working on open source on international projects, you're going to have to learn to work with people from different backgrounds and not get angry when they communicate in a different manner. What you perceive as rude, and what others do differ. It's important to be open minded and flexible in our perceptions of others and their intentions, because often, you'll find the issue is our perception and not their intention.
My point is, the tone and content of the question upset me, and i put a lot of work into this project. especially on https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/pulls/4133
I understand your point @ancientmarinerdev and maybe i should not have made the issue in mineclonia, but many people have raised these issues to me, then i see a confrontational comment by the owner, it makes me very sad, and i feel powerless.
It made me feel like i was just ripping off someones work or being lazy, thats what i thought was being implied, especially with the "seriously" which in my culture is a accusatory word to use in this context.
If @the-real-herowl apologizes for the tone and content of his original comment, i will apologize in kind and fix the original PR with any fixes that need to happen. otherwise, i don't think we can come to an agreement.
I love this project and want to contribute to it, but if we can't see eye to eye and talk nicely to eachother, then we should go our seperate ways. That means, me contributing to mineclonia instead.
@the-real-herowl its your call. for the record, i am sorry for making the issue on mineclonia.
I apologize for how my comment came off. I don't have much time and was writing in haste, after a quick glance. It was not my intention to attack you, but I understand that you could feel attacked. Again, I'm sorry for any distress my comment may have caused.
I will put on record that I'm pleased for your contributions and want to say thanks for what you've done so far. It is appreciated.
Could you be a bit more explicit about who raised it and where because I'm not seeing any of this. This is the first I've really seen in terms of frustration recently?
I mean, I understand it didn't come across great, but I don't think they meant it. I think they were genuinely asking a question and surprised.
I cannot talk for herowl at all, and I'm not going to undermine someone who is currently doing a job I cannot do. There is always a million and 1 people ready to say how a maintainer should do x, y and z differently and after walking in those shoes for a year, I won't add to that. It's a high scrutiny job with a lot of blowback. I have sometimes probably been less direct and it has not been helpful so I cannot claim my approach is any better.
Ultimately for me. It's important that folk enjoy their contributions, so where ever you find yourself and whatever project you work on, I do hope it brings you happiness.
Thanks, its nice to know you are not against me.
I pour a lot of work into this, and would hate to see it go to waste.
It just upsets me when the tone of a comment is so confrontational because it takes me a long time to make these, and i am quite frustrated about it. to the point where i could lose sleep so i hope this gets resolved.
The only reason i find time to work on this while having a job, is because i am doing it as my final year project at university.
Hopefully after then, i will still have time for minetest, but i am not sure if i will.
I enjoy contributing to this project. but i guess we will see what @the-real-herowl says.
I already did...? A few messages above.
Thank you, i appreciate that.
Let me know in the PR, what needs changing, i looked over the code, and it was very little from mineclonia if you look at each function individually, in the survival.lua the difference was only 2 lines. most of the changes were in the init.lua.
In future when integrating code i will try and learn about git blame, etc.
I will, when I have the time to look through it all.
You are correct. And I stepped away for 8-9 months due to 2 1/2 months of her being outright toxic to me. I spent 6 months sending out take down notices to places that she perpetuated her toxicity and harassment to me. I mean, if @Impulse want's to play in that mess, I certainly won't stop them. But, I will offer this to them: you'll be loved and the golden boy to them until the instant that you aren't, and you'll experience the same bullshit that I experienced. If that is the environment that you want to spend your free time, well, again I won't stop you. In fact, I'll simply say You do you Boo! and, I will wish you luck on that endeavor.
One also should be able to handle directness from American or British English speakers. Especially in the field of Programming. Programmers are often very direct, and to the point. It's just more efficient to not mince "useless" words. They also tend to put their primary thoughts first, before what most would deem a Social Nicety. I am one of these people. I try to reduce confusion and misunderstandings by not using as much indirect speech. And, I don't mean offense in doing it. Heck if I want to intentionally offend someone, I have quite the vocabulary that I can use, and I won't mince words when doing it.
@Impulse - Being asked about something is the person (who's asking) trying to understand your thought process or actions. If they want to blame you, I can guarantee that it won't be in the form of a question, but in an outright statement format.
I do believe, like Ancient, that if you are using your free time to contribute to a project where others are ALSO using their free time, that those involved should generally enjoy the process. If, you don't feel like you're vibing with it, speak up. If they don't feel like they are vibing with you, then they should speak up. Life is too short to be angry / anxious / etc., all the time. But, that also means that I don't believe that others should walk on eggshells nor that they should bow to impulsive demands just to make someone happy. We are ALL to old for that. A good rule that I try to follow, and mind you I am human, is I try to ask questions instead of getting offended wherever possible. I fail at it sometimes, and I excel at it other times. And sometimes, you can't take something as not being offensive. But, It's really good to ask instead of just assuming.
I have been playing Mineclone2 for a couple of months now and have taken an interest in it. There are a number of things that have been bothering me as I have been playing and as I am a programmer, I would like to provide code contributions to fix these behaviors. Right now this is hopper and minecart behaviors, but I am sure I will run into more in the future.
I'd like to help as well. The game is awesome and I enjoy playing it. I code on/off so I need to read up on the language and intricacies. Are there any quick starts?
Am also an OG minecrafter from the browser days and know quite a lot of MC mechanics that I could implement/fix. I heard the game would divert from feature parity with MC? Can anyone point me to the topic? Thanks! :) Great work btw.
Lua is easy to pick up. We have resources links for API etc. on the #info channel on our discord (link in the readme file). If you have experience with other languages, I recommend you to just start going through the Minetest modding "book" and pick up stuff as you go, then move to just making a mod or attempting to implement a simple feature for Mineclone2, consulting the book or the API as needed. You can always ask questions on our discord or matrix, and you can try looking at existing PRs and maybe reviewing them.
MineClone2 looking for volunteers!to VoxeLibre looking for volunteers!